Discussion Question 2

The stories closing lines aptly conclude the darkness/death imagery which Ovid has developed throughout the narrative because the fruit on the tree which were once light have been turned black by the death of the two lovers and then their remains were burned together and the two lovers became ash which is black. All through out the story, there has been dark imagery. Ovid emphasized the night several times and it was during the night that these terrible events unfolded. Some examples of this are in line 84 when Ovid writes that they will depart in "silenti nocte" which translates to silent night and in line 93 when ovid writes "per tenebras" which is descibing Thisbe move through the darkness. Ovid also describe the cave that Thisbe hid in as a dark cave (line 100) and it is while she was hiding that Pyramus thought she was dead and killed himself. So, all through out the story the theme that Ovid has been sending is darkness leads to bad things. Therefore, it is very fitting that when the two lovers die their bodies are burned and they become black ash. The fruit turning black is also very fitting because while the lovers were alive the fruit on the tree was bright white and after they died it became black, a dark color which laces death and darkness.

Discussion Question 1

Ovid’s description of Pyramus’ suicide is essential to the story line because the whole point of the story is to show what happens when you try to keep two loved ones apart. During the Roman times and even before that, marriages were arranged by families for social and political reasons, people did not marry or love. Pyramus and Thisbe loved each other and longed to get married but their parents forbid it causing great pain. The point of the descriptive suicide is to really affect the reader so that they get a really gruesome image of pain that will stick with them and they will see the dark side of forbidding lovers to be together. If Pyramus had just killed himself and there was no detail, the image would not stick with people as much and it would not seem as bad. When reading the descriptive details about the limbs flapping on the ground and the blood shooting out like a water pipe, it is a horrifying image. The details are going to bring more emotion to the reader. A good example of this is the movies ‘Titanic’. In the movie when the ship starts sinking, hundreds of people are dying left and right and although it is sad, few people are affected by it. When Jack dies however, people always get upset (mostly the girls) because we have grown with him as a character through the movie and although 1500 other people are dying his death seems the worst because he is not just some unknown character, he is a character who has details about that people watching the movie have come to know. Details bring emotion and make things seem worse. So, the suicide of Pyramus is so descriptive so that it stands out in people’s minds and it gives the reader more emotion.

Pyramus & Thisbe (limerick)

Once lived Pyramus and Thisbe

their love was not allowed to be

their parent's lacked pity

so they left the city

what dangers would come they didn't see

Pyramus & Thisbe (lines: 78-127)

In lines 78-127 in Pyramus & Thisbe, Ovid has used several rhetorical devices including:

1. In line 118 when Ovid writes; “nostril quoque sanguis haustus!” which translates into; “also drink our blood!” In this line Pyramus in shouting at the bloody garment to drink his blood as well as Thisbe’s. This is personification because a rag is an inanimate object and can not drink like a human can.

2. In line 119 when Ovid writes; “demisit in ilia ferrum” which translates into “plunged the sword into his genitals”. The word ‘ilia, illum’ means genitals and it is ironic that Pyramus stabbed himself there because that is where lovers connect and the whole reason that Pyramus and Thisbe had left the city was so they could physically be together. So it is ironic that Pyramus chose that spot to stab himself.

3. In lines 121-123 when Ovid writes; “Cruor emicat alte, non aliter quam cum vitiate fistula plumbo scinditur” which translates to; “blood spurts out high, no differently then when a defective lead pipe is cut.” This is a metaphor because it is a comparison that is comparing Pyrumus’s wound to a broken pipe.

Pyramus & Thisbe (walls)

So far and Pyramus and Thisbe, there are two types of walls that keep the lovers apart. There is a physical wall that keeps them apart and there is a figurative wall that keeps them apart. The physical wall that keeps them apart is the wall conjoining their homes with the small crack that makes it possible to communicate. Pyramus and Thisbe get frustrated with this wall that blocks them from seeing each other and being able to kiss. In line 73 they say: “Invide, paries, quid amantibus obstas” which translates into “Jelous wall, why do you oppose lovers?” They go on to say in line 76 however that they are not ungrateful; “nec sumus ingradi.” The figurative wall that keeps the two lovers apart in the story is their parents. Line 60-61 says: “Taedae quoque iure coissent, sed vetuere patres,” which translates to: “law would have brought them together in the bond of marriage but their parents forbid it.” The final wall in the story is the wall surrounding the city which Pyramus and Thisbe leave to be together. Outside these walls there is anarchy and no civilization. Pyramus and Thisbe have just left and have already run into a dangerous lion.

Pyramus & Thisbe (lines: 55-77)

So far in Pyramus & Thisbe, Ovid has used several Rhetorical devices, including:

1. In line 55 when Ovid writes, “iuvenum pulcherrimus alter” which translates to, “one the most handsome of young men.” This is a hyperbole that is used to get the point across that Pyramus is good looking. It is an exaggeration to say he is the most handsome of all men.

2. In line 68 when Ovid writes, “quid non sentit amor?” which translates to, “what does love not feel?” This is a rhetorical question which means it is a question that is not meant to be answered but rather is added in for an effect; to get the reader/listener thinking about something.

3. In line 73 when Ovid writes, “paries, quid amantibus obstas?” which translates to, “wall, why do you oppose lovers?” this is an example of personification because Ovid is giving in inanimate object (the wall) human characteristics by asking why it opposes lovers. A wall cannot oppose because it is an inanimate object.

Poem 75 (limerick)

Lesbia you have brought down my mind
And now in life I am very behind
So no matter how good u may become
Although it would be enough for some
For me, you are just too unkind

Poem 8

In this poem, Catullus is writing about someone trying to get over someone else that they once loved. Catullus again uses Lesbia as the woman and starts off the poem by telling himself that it is time to give up in line one. He then goes on to say that once things used to be good but now they are not and then goes on to the second half of the poem where he tells himself not to be week in line 9 and then builds up his confidence by listing all of the things she will be losing by giving him up. He asks questions like: “who will visit you?” and “who will kiss you?” to boost his own confidence. What makes this poem timeless and classic is the general theme of falling out of love and saying goodbye to an ex-lover. One modern day song that this poem reminded me of is “Take a Bow” by Rihanna. In the song, she uses the end of a show to describe breaking up with her lover. She says “you put on quite a show, really had me going” which is the idea Catullus had in line 3 when he wrote “once the sun shone bright on you”; the idea that at one time things were good. Then the song continues “but now its time to go, curtain’s finally closing” which is the same idea Catullus had when he wrote “goodbye girl”; which is the idea that things are over between us now. So the fact the this poem can be connected to a modern day song proves that it is classic and timeless.

Poem 85 (Haiku)

love you and hate you

you may wonder why this is

thats just how it is

Poem 72

In poem 72, Catullus writes about the age old theme of falling out of love. In the poem he say’s he used to love Lebia but she has hurt him and now he has lost respect for her and sees her for what she truly is; which is ‘worthless’. The theme of falling out of love is what makes this poem classic because people in ancient Rome felt the same way falling out of love as we do today in the 21st century. Personally, this poem reminds me of a song that just came out this summer called Love Drunk by a band called Boys Like Girls. The song goes: “I used to be love drunk” which is the same idea Catullus is writing about when he says “I loved you then” in line three. The song then goes on with: “but now I’m hung over” which is the same message Catullus is writing about in lines five and six when he says: “now I know you….you are much cheaper and less worthy to me”. Also, in live seven Catullus writes “because such an injury drives a lover…” describing his pain as an injury. In the song there is a line: “now I’m so broken that I can’t get up” which is the same idea as describing the pain (broken heart) as an injury. The idea of feeling broken or injured by love is just another thing that connects Catullus’s poems to the future

Poem 86

In Poem 86, Cattullus writes about another woman named Quintia is is thought beautiful and just like the woman who was thought beautiful in poem 43, Catullus insults her beauty because he isn’t happy about the idea that others think there is someone beautiful besides Lesbia. This poem is also similar to both poems 43 and 22 in that Catullus is insulting someone but he first focuses on something good about that person. In poem 86, he admits that Quinita is tall and fair skinned which are both beautiful traits and admits that Quintia has beautiful features but then goes on to say that all of Quintia’s beautiful features combined are not beautiful. Again, Catullus is insulting someone in a less harsh way just like in poem 43 when he used double negatives to insult the other woman or in poem 22 when he first admitted that the poet was a very well spoken man. Personally, this poem reminded me of a song by Shania Twain called “That Don’t Impress me Much”. In the song, she admits really goods things about a guy, like ‘so you’re a rocket scientist’ or ‘so your Brad Pitt’ and then says ‘that don’t impress me much’ which is exactly what Catullus is doing in poem 86. He say’s Quintia may be tall and may be fair skinned and those are beautiful features but Quintia is still not beautiful to him.

Poem 22

Poem 22 is similar to poem 43 in that in both poems, Catullus is insulting somebody. Also in both of these poems, Catullus has a very polite way of writing and although he is insulting people it gets the point to the reader with out sounding as bad as one would think. For example, in poem 43 when he is insulting the physical features of the girl, he does not say ‘you have a big nose’ he says ‘you who do not have a small nose’. He is using a double negative to make his insults less harsh. In poem 22, Catullus is a little more direct with his insults saying ‘he is more clumsy than a clumsy country, whenever he touches poetry’. With that being said, in poem 22 Catullus starts off complementing the poet first by telling the reader how charming and smart he is. Therefore by the time the insults come it does not seem as bad because Catullus has mentioned his strengths as well as his weaknesses. Also, instead of Catullus coming out and saying ‘he sucks’ Catullus uses less harsh words like clumsy which do not have a really negative connotation. So, poem 43 and poem 22 are similar in that in both poems Catullus is insulting someone but he is doing it in a very safe, indirect and non-harsh way.

Poem 92

In poem 92, Catullus writes about something he has previously written about in other poems. The poem starts off with, “Lesbia always speaks bad of me” but then writes in the next line, “may I die if Lesbia does not love me”. This theme of Lesbia trash talking him but him still being in love with her was seen in poem 83 when Catullus was happy with the fact that she was trash talking him to her husband because it meant she was thinking about him. This poem can be considered classical because it is a common theme in life to love someone at one point who may not love you back. It was something that happened in Ancient Rome thousands of years ago and it is something that can be seen in everyday life here in America in this day and age. I have had many friends who have really liked someone and the person does not feel the same way about them. Wanting to be loved or accepted by someone is an emotion everyone goes through at some point. As humans it is only natural to want to be accepted so the fact that Catullus decided to write about this very theme was smart on his part. Writing about something a lot of people can connect to is smart because when you can connect so something you like it. Because Catullus chose to write about a situation like this, a lot of people can connect to it because it is classical and people are still having the same issues thousands of years later which are why his poems are still read.

Poem 87

In poem 87, Catullus writes that no one is able to say they love another woman as much as he loves Lesbia. He says that no one has ever had more faith in love than he has in Lesbia’s love. Basically, Catullus is convincing Lesbia that no love is greater than theirs. When Catullus wrote this poem, it was fairly popular in it’s time because many people were able to connect with it. Every couple believes there love is better than everyone else’s so anyone who read this poem who was in love or once had been could connect to it. What makes this poem classical is that this connection that so many Romans had to the poem still exists today in that many lovers in this day and age can connect to the poem and believe there love is greater than anyone else’s love. Examples of this theme Catullus wrote about can be seen in many modern day romantic films or ‘chick flicks’. An example of this is in the romantic comedy Hitch. In the movie at the end, the main character is chasing after the girl he loves who is leaving and he tells her that their love is the greatest love he has ever felt and they have something special. Poem 87 is a classic because the idea of having a love greater than everyone else’s still exists today. The very thing that Catullus wrote about is now portrayed in movies like Hitch.

Poem 5

Poem 5 can be considered ‘classical’ in many ways. In it, Catullus is saying to Lesbia to love him and not care what other people think. Catullus starts off the poem by saying “let us live”, and then continues to lines two and three saying “let us value all the talk of the old men as a penny”. Catullus then back’s up his first point by saying that humans only have so long to live so that they should live there life how they want to before there time runs out here on earth. Even though Catullus wrote this poem in the 1st century CE, it is a theme that still applies to people living today. There our many songs that exist today that have to do with the very same themes Catullus is trying to present in his poem. For example, one of the first modern songs I thought of when I read this poem was a song by Bonnie Raitt called “Lets Give Them Something to Talk About”. In the song, the basic idea is that people are talking about a relationship and she is saying lets give them to talk about; as in lets not let what other people think bother us, let us make them talk because who cares as long as we are happy. The other song that really came to mind when Catullus is telling Lesbia that they only live once in lines five and six is a song by Rihanna called “Live Your Life”. In her song Rihanna say’s “live your life, ain’t got no time for no haters”. What she means is that you should live your life how you want and not worry about what other people think because life is too short to pay attention to people who don’t like you. So, in poem 5 and in both hit songs, the theme of living your life and not worrying what other people think is dominant. So the fact that Catullus wrote this poem in the 1st century proves the themes are timeless; which makes it classic.

Poem 7 (Haiku)

Kiss me Lesbia
never ever stop kissing
i'm under your spell

Poem 43

Poem 43 is different from any of the previous poem I have read by Catullus so far because in this poem we see Catullus verbally attack another person because she is compared to Lesbia. First of all, a woman can’t help if other people compare her to someone else or if other’s think she is pretty. Catullus has no right to attack he physical features and make fun of her because he is offended that someone would think her as pretty to Lesbia. Through this poem however, it is clear that Catullus is obsessed with Lesbia and has an unhealthy relationship with her if he is that defensive. Perhaps he feels that if he insults other woman she will like him better or it will somehow bring him closer to Lesbia. One interesting aspect of the poem however is that Catullus uses sarcasm or a 'double negative' to get his points across. For example, he does not say the other woman has a big nose but rather that "she does not have a small nose"; which implies she has a big nose. The fact that Catullus would right a whole poem insulting an innocent woman just because she was compared to Lesbia is still a little disturbing. In previous poems, some of Catullus's obsessive behavior has come out like when he was pleased that Lebia was mad at him but this poem really crosses a line.

Poem 109

In this poem, there is a major shift from the other three poems. In the other poems, Catullus often seems like a lover whom is obsessed with Lesbia in a very romantic way. In this poem, however, Catullus describes the relationship between him and Lesbia as a sacred friendship rather than a forbiden love; which is what i personally was picturing after reading the first three poems. Another difference this poem shows from the rest is that in this poem, Catullus is praying to the gods and asking them to make his wish come true and allow him and lesbia to be friends forever. There is a very positive connotation and as a reader, it makes you want to be on Catullus's side because you feel for him. As humans we have all wished for things or hoped for a good outcome in uncertain times; therefore it is only natural to empathise with Catullus. In previous poems however like poem 83, Catullus portrays himself as a creepy stalker who is pleased with the fact Lesbia hates him and call's the husband a 'mule'. In that poem i do not sympathise with Catullus at all; he seems more like a villain or a Hannibal Lector. In poem 109 the tone is completely different and Catullus seems like a good guy who just wants his friendship to last.

Poem 83

This poem is very inportant to the string of poems concerning Lesbia because in it we learn that the speaker (or writter/Catullus) actually knows Lesbia and has made contact with her. In the poem she is talking bad about him to her husband which up until this point we did not know she had. The interesting thing is that Catullus does not seem to be angry with the fact that she is trash talking him but rather is happy that she is even talking about him. To him the important thing is that she remembers him and his main concern is that she thinks enough about him to be mad at him. He would rather have her be mad at him than not mention him or talk about him. In this poem he is passionate about the fact that she speaks of him and states that the husband is a 'mule' for not realizing that by his wife speaking of another man, that means she thinks of the other man.

Catullus 51

This poem by catullus is actually an adaption of a greek pom written by Sapho. Both peoms however hold the same idea. Basically, the poem is about a man who is in love with a woman and is jelous of the other man she is with. In the poem he is watching them on a date together and compares the man to a god because he is with the woman he loves. The two themes of the poem are defidently jelousy and love. The tone of the poem is kind of sad because as a reader you feel bad for the writter who can't be with the woman he loves. Everyone has at one point really wanted something they couldn't have and for most, there has been someone they have liked who didn't like them back. That makes this poem very relatable because as a reader, you sympthise with the writter and can feel the emotions the writter wants you to feel. Love can make even the mst confident of people jelous and this poem really hits the nail on the head with that idea.

Poem II

Poem II which was printed on the sheet, beginning with 'SPARROW' was a bit of an odd poem but is defidently considered a classic in my eyes. The thing that makes the poem so classic is that it was written by Catullus thousands of years ago yet can still be applied to modern day. The poem is timeless and so that plays a big role in considering it a classic. in the poem, the writter describes a pet sparrow who belongs to the women he loves. Personally, it seemed to me that he was envious of the pet sparrow because it was loved so much by the woman. this idea of being in love with somebody and feeling envious of the things they love is a timeless theme that everyone to this day can relate with. The poem remided me alot of the song 'Jesse's Girl' in which the singer is envous of his friend Jesse because he is in love with Jesse's girlfriend.